In the fic, Kirk, Spock and Bones are sent back to the set of the original Star Trek television series where they are swapped with their real-life counterparts and meet the Great Bird of the Galaxy himself, creator Gene Roddenberry. Likewise, an early fan critique of RPF in the Professionals fandom was published in the 7th issue of The Hatstand Express letterzine in Regarding the depiction of slash relationships between real people, the fan wrote:. Consider: how would you feel if you found out that people you thought were friendly were telling stories true or not about your sex life? Stories that could get back to your friends and families?
Yes, that concept boggles my mind too. If feelings of shame are common for you, or common around your writing, working with a therapist might be helpful. I was. Why is that? Is this feeling justified?
Cuddlers diapers canada. Heal your relationship with your writing.
You are commenting using your Twitter account. Terms of Service. So no, those who believe she made serious ethical errors are not all people with a foot in this fandom or a vendetta against her. Why was cheerleading invented required Address never made public. Yes, Fanfiction ethics fanfic writers definitely would have no ethical qualms about that. I can appreciate your position. Joking tweets can be taken out of context and used against erhics of us; and they were with her. Naruzeldamaster 13h. I think if you truly believe in the talent this writers have, you should have faith in the fact that they should be able to accomplish trully original fiction. James has made a mockery out of the Twilight fanfiction fandom and all that Fanfiction ethics fanfic writers has represented. Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, this is becoming less about publishing fanfiction than it is a personal vendetta against an author.
I write both fanfiction and original stories.
- In the fic, Kirk, Spock and Bones are sent back to the set of the original Star Trek television series where they are swapped with their real-life counterparts and meet the Great Bird of the Galaxy himself, creator Gene Roddenberry.
- Story Story Writer Forum Community.
In the fic, Kirk, Spock and Bones are sent back to the set of the original Star Trek television series where they are swapped with their real-life counterparts and meet the Great Bird of the Galaxy himself, creator Gene Roddenberry. Likewise, an early fan critique of RPF in the Professionals fandom was published in the 7th issue of The Hatstand Express letterzine in Regarding the depiction of slash relationships between real people, the fan wrote:.
Consider: how would you feel if you found out that people you thought were friendly were telling stories true or not about your sex life? Stories that could get back to your friends and families? We may own the characters we write about, but we do not own the actors who created them. Friends, this is libel! Celebrities make a conscious choice to enter into the public eye. And star personas are as constructed as any fictional character. A meta post by angstslashhope makes a compelling case for viewing celebrities as fictional characters:.
These celebrities are creating a character — performing a fictional character in a way, to and via the media and general public. In reality, however, it is the exact opposite: fan writers by nature have little to no agency in textual production.
With talk show hosts occasionally assaulting their celebrity guests with explicit fanart of themselves and their co-stars in compromising positions, fan works are always the butt of the joke. Other than these brief encounters with fan works that are always played for laughs or groans , celebrities are unlikely to be affected by fan works. These are people who have not chosen to be in the public eye. Perhaps a way to combat the non-consensual inclusion of family members would be to change the names of these characters.
Then again, whether this actually solves any sort of ethical dilemma is debatable. I mean, I think the fourth wall comes into this too.
There have always been designated fan-fiction spaces — zines, livejournal, fanfiction. I do have a problem with people breaking the fourth wall and tweeting celebrities or their families links to explicit photo manips or fan-fiction. Fan fiction has always been about creating for ourselves and other fans — we make no money out of it — despite spending an ordinate amount of time and effort creating it. We do it because we love the characters or people we write about and we love the sense of community writing it brings.
It helps us become better writers and artists. Just as Van Gogh found his style by copying the style of great Parisian masters. Writing fan-fiction or making fan-art helps us find our own voice within the safety and comfort of a world we know. I think celebrities shutting down fan-fiction actually hurts fan engagement and the fan communities that form around them.
I completely agree. Fanworks should stay in fan spaces. There are different power dynamics at play here. Anyway, thank you so much for reading and for sharing your wonderful comment. You are commenting using your WordPress.
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And lastly, addressing errors and writing structure, no article written has been remotely kind in regards to quality. I cannot tell you how many pieces of fan fiction I have thoroughly enjoyed writing that were then completely wrecked by someone tainting them with meanness. I see all points and agree with many opinions. It's sad that, as a kid, with no prompting from the outside world or other fan fiction authors, I already knew that talking about writing fan fiction was social suicide. Yes, in the age of Amazon self-publishing, any deluded writer can publish crap. Learn about Mythos Want Signed Books?
Fanfiction ethics fanfic writers. The controversial genre and its ethical debates have a long history in fandom.
Some might use the fandoms for its built-in beta-reading support. However, I have heard second-hand, so not too distant that Ms. GF refused to make changes requested by the editor at her first publisher.
The author of this book set out to con money out of her readers. As an ex fandom member, I was around when personal emails from the author were sent to another and then shown publicly. She referred to her fans and this fanfic in a less than flattering light, clearly stating that she was in it for the money.
Thanks for sharing your insight and for your comment! Thanks for this. I have zero idea if her fans paid for her to attend either the DC weekend or the New York one. Instead, she chose to publish her existing work, which relies on the Twilight tropes to make it work.
However, she chose to use her network to promote a work built on—and dependent on—the fandom of another author. For me, that crosses the line. If James had written another BDSM story in another setting, using what she learned from writing Master of the Universe, I would have stood behind her and applauded her work. Yes, I absolutely agree. I have nothing against her goal of being a successful writer.
I have issues with the questionable ethics of the choices she and others like her made to get there. Those are my exact thoughts on this whole debauchery.
But if you come upon this exceptional talent that you discovered throughout the asociation this stories had with the characters you loved from a book, I think it is not a wild assumption to think you would feel conned if what you read for free and thinking actively in these other characters were to be sold to you later in the desguise of original work. I think if you truly believe in the talent this writers have, you should have faith in the fact that they should be able to accomplish trully original fiction.
Interesting point! Some will be one or the other, or both, or neither. As you said, even if only the names are the same, the fanfic author is still trying to evoke the original characters. Than you, Jami, for this lovely discussion you have set up. I just wanted to point out that there are numerous other published fanfics from Twilight, some even retaining the original name.
Please make sure you include all those authors, also. I agree with you on the ethics of this. I also wonder about people who record covers of songs, then sell them on iTunes or whatever.
Cover versions of songs fall under what is called a compulsory license regime; the law specifically allows for this and a system has been set up so that, by paying a standard royalty rate, you can record and sell your own version of a song without seeking prior permission. Thanks for the information about cover songs. Thanks for your insight! This entry is why many people are so upset. It crossed a huge line in the sand. No, this was an entire story, feedback and built in fanbase used for profit.
I do find it highly amusing that she has lots of guard dogs defending her honor but not once has she attempted to speak out via social media or her website.
Sometimes, I find silence is an indicator of guilt not of nobility. And lastly, addressing errors and writing structure, no article written has been remotely kind in regards to quality. So what, are you confirming what the author has acted like all along?
If this was her using her MotU fans to promote a new story, no one—and I mean, no one —would have issues with it no matter how high it went on the NYT bestseller list. That would make for a great story. But this? In that respect, I feel bad for this author. It will be interesting to see if her fan base sticks around for her next—presumably original—books.
I see all points and agree with many opinions. Many good ones at that. In this case, I am huge fan of MotU and yet did not buy book. We also have fanfict authors who gain fans thru their stories and then publish a original book and target their existing twifans. Look at how popular vampires got after SM Twilight books gained notoriety.
Every will ride some coattail at any given time. Its just how it works. Which I loved too. She also had huge following. Link to purchase book is on her blog. I have to just say this… all books have editorial issues but if story captivates u it will suck u in. Obviously the case with FSoG. However, would it have been enough to get it into the Amazon bestseller list for a certain genre? And many stories grow from there, especially when combined with hundreds of positive reviews from the fans.
So if 5, fans all purchased the book in one week, the book would rank higher than books that sold , copies over several weeks.
And yes, once a book appears on the list, it often stays there as others buy it to see what the fuss is about. I believe one great example of a fanfic writer turned into major published author is Cassandra Clare.
By never mentioning that the 50 Shades Trilogy is a work of fan fiction, she completely fails to acknowledge the Twilight connection. And people who have succumbed to her story because of that very connection in the first place are offended by it. Yes, the people buying her books are not being forced at gun point to purchase them. Would it have been detrimental to her 50 Shades books if she had said that these were originally written as fan fiction?
At some point, the answer to that could be yes. Wow, so true. Whether it would have solved every issue is debatable, but it certainly would have gone a long way toward adding a bit of class into a situation that is in desperate need of it. Not only did she publish fanfic, she plagiarized multiple authors in her fic and plagiarized herself in being published.
Vast legions of Harry Potter fans cringe whenever CC is mentioned. We felt — and still feel, many of us — the way I imagine many Twilight fans feel about this book. It feels like a betrayal, of fandom if not a personal one. As to the ethics behind this, there is definitely a line. I am a published author myself. I have written original fiction, completely unrelated to fandom. I have also taken a trio of ficlets I wrote as fanfiction and reworked them into a single story.
So I may be biased, but if someone pulls the story off their site or blog and reworks it into something original, then I have no issue with them submitting it for publication. No problem! All comments show up the same to me, no matter how old the post is.
And I agree with how you reworked your ficlets—using them as a plot framework for something new and different. I saw a snippet by author Bob Mayer just a few days ago about how he did that with one of his stories original fiction. He took the same idea, changed the characters and the location to China, and rewrote the story.
Same idea, new story. I wish they all would. It wasn't just character names that were changed. I bought it! Lets just b civil. I know how that feels. Vampires have always been popular, yes Twilight was a phenomenon that others have used to push them forward. That is not the issue, if the work is original then great, but FSOG was not original. Very true. Interesting post.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and there are lots of people on both sides of this argument. Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, this is becoming less about publishing fanfiction than it is a personal vendetta against an author.
So the idea of publishing fanfiction is not new. In fact, even before FSoG, several well known fanfiction authors published books and the Twilighted site itself even gave birth to a publishing house. Those authors even published their books with the exact same name as their FF stories. And as we speak, there are other FF authors who have had books released within the last 2 months.
Hi Bo, I appreciate your well-thought-out comment, and I appreciate that you addressed the ethical issues. Others are welcome to their opinion about where that line lies. Yes, I brought up this book because it is on the NYT bestseller list.
However, I agree with you that other published fanfic writing should be held to the same standard—good or bad—as this story. I believe the writers at the Fan Fic Panel that spoke about AU fiction and publishing, went on to create a publishing house that — you guessed it — published Fic.
The comment at the panel was self-serving. She got very angry. However, when a book reaches the NYT bestseller list, it will get outside attention, not only from the media, but from people like me. She came to the fandom and to fanfiction the same way many others did. She never insulted them because she is one of them. She has expressed surprise that so many read and liked her story and has been humbled and somewhat shy about all the attention.
And just so you know, yes I have met her and talked with her. These statements come from personal knowledge. Joking tweets can be taken out of context and used against any of us; and they were with her. The idea to publish came as the story progressed.
I can appreciate your position. All I can see as truth is the result of her choices. Why do every single one of her fans say the argument is personal? I hate that this is the best defense anyone can come up with. Bo, Thank you for so eloquently stating what I feel, too. It surpasses the real issue and sets a bad point for any writers in FanFic or self-publishing.
And, I completely agree with you, Bo, it is interesting that the source of so much of vitriolic rants appear to come from some of the prior FanFic authors themselves.
I call on all the intelligent, sensible peeps in this fandom to join me in asking for a little peace and love for our hardworking authors and to celebrate their success, rather than condemning them. Peace, SS. All I know about how the two sides see the issue are the comments here. I wrote this post for my readers, not the fandom at large on either side. I had never heard of this book before a few days ago. I know nothing about this author. Every fanfic author who makes these same choices—regardless of how successful they are—has the same questionable ethics in my mind.
So no, those who believe she made serious ethical errors are not all people with a foot in this fandom or a vendetta against her. The problem with these books is that the author cashed in on the popularity of the series and had planned to from the start. Dress it up any way that you want, the origin this story will never go away. I hope one day E. James or Erica as I knew her, is exposed for this fact.
Sorry if that offends anyone. These are cold, hard facts. Yes, the simple act of making money on fanfic writing and the loyalty of the fans crosses the line in my mind. Add in the conflicting reports of her motivations and that pushes the issue into slimy territory.
It definitely sounds like she used the fandom. And I agree. You have been able to say what I have been unable to articulate. Character building, world building and massive edits. Just look at Kristen Stewart. As an author you would know something seemed off and unusual about this situation and the massive success of this book. Dig around a little and the truth is there. Fanfic writing is great for some things.
I learned a lot about plotting and story structure with my fanfic experience. The majority of the books they accept are Twilight Fan Fiction because the people who started those companies were readers of Twilight Fan Fiction.
They gathered like minded individuals who saw the potential, and flew by the seat of their pants. They were readers and lovers of Twilight Fan Fiction. What were they good at? For a start, they were smart business women. They knew exactly who and what to tap into, targeting the big stories with lots of followers. Not the stories that were well written and with some substance, but only the ones which were popular.
And we all know, sex sells. So, maybe we should change the focus from these authors publishing their stories to these two publishers who have taken no ethical responsibility in the decisions they have made.
You want to tap into an existing fanbase and start your company using your customers, fine. You make several interesting points here. Yes, in the age of Amazon self-publishing, any deluded writer can publish crap. So we have to wonder why these fanfic authors chose to go through an unknown publisher. This is exactly what I was saying on twitter to some people. These publishing Co. Should be held accountable.
If not for legalities than for ethical reasons too. They should b responsible for the work they throw out there. This is a tricky subject. I still find that both sides have good arguments, at least the serious arguments, lol.
On one hand, why not let someone publish their stories? And so on? Hear, hear! My point is—under what circumstances is it ethical for a fanfic author to make money off their fanfic writings? We watch football, ice skating, hockey, etc. Thanks for adding to the conversation! There was a lot of parallelisms. You know what to expect when you begin a fic, despite the OOC it claims to be.
This is a personal decision. I feel a little better. Yes, a lot of people from the fanfic community have been visiting here, but I still want to hear from my friends too. I agree with your take on the matter. We all take pieces and parts of various character background, plot tropes, setting details, etc. She purposely tied her story into the fandom for their support, and I find that unethical. Others are welcome to place that line somewhere else, and I want to understand their reasons why.
James has made a mockery out of the Twilight fanfiction fandom and all that it has represented. We, as readers and writers, found our way to fanfiction after something struck us good or bad with the Twilight series. Many people have written for the fandom, including myself. Fanfiction, in and of itself, is taking parts, ideas, or any number of similarities, and applying them to a story of your own. She read the Twilight series and something sparked the idea in her head.
IF that had not happened, she would not have written Twilight fanfiction. She would have written her own original work. However, that is where her independent ideas ends. She took characteristics of the characters and applied them to her story. Example: Edward is a rich, controlling man who lives his life in solitude. He was adopted as a teenager and the trauma from that and what occurred, has made him incapable of having any romantic relationships. Please note, I mentioned nothing about him being a vampire.
I agree with you. The names, yes, the setting, sure but nothing else. The descriptions of their eyes, hair etc. PS: Bravo to you for having the cajoles to post this. This generation is forgetting what good writing is all about. Thanks for sharing. Publishing unedited crap whether through a veiled vanity press like these fanfic mills or through self-publishing is disrespectful to readers. And I might have had less of an issue with this if the fanfic author had done a major overhaul on the story.
But if she kept her original plotline and changed the characters, would the fandom have still enjoyed it? Were the fanfic readers connecting to the plot events or the characters? Expending countless hours trolling each and every article, blog, and not to mention all the time it takes to create all those socks. And kudos to you, Jami, for never mentioning the author by name.
So respectful of you to skirt around trashing someone by not making it personal. Have there been snarky comments that could be taken multiple ways?
The MotU pdf was not taken off fanfiction. Yes, Beansy had already provided that comparison link. But you bring up a great, fantastic, oh-so-important point. I want every author reading this to pay attention, right here, right now. So we should be very careful about what we choose to post to fanfiction.
And this goes along with what I said about making money off fanfic. We can choose to make it our own by changing enough details or we can choose to label it fanfic. Once we label it fanfic and try to appeal to the fandom, we lose the ability to make other choices.
Ah, but can it be copyrighted? Maybe not officially registered as a copyright, but many publishing firms are beginning to recognized FF work as property of the writer. Recently, a FF author had her story stolen, sent to a publisher who was actually getting ready to publish the book in paperback. It was word-for-word the FF story, with the names changed. Readers of the original FF work let the seller Amazon know that the work was plagiarized.
The lines are so blurred and the areas so grey no pun intended that even the lawyers are reluctant to give any absolutes. This is new territory. Acknowledgement of plagiarism does not confer copyright status. And yes, I fixed the typos. The material I posted from 50Shades is readily available as a free download on multiple sites where you can purchase the book. In fact, I took it from one of those sites. She wrote them both.
Everyone knows that and no one is disputing it. Basically word for word. The publisher, though removed the book from publication. There IS such a thing as intellectual property even if it was posted online. And along with the concept in this blog of the distinction between what is legal and what is ethical, I would certainly make the point that distributing MotU, weather legal or not, is being done in a less-than-kind manner. Now, the thornier issue of books that have been published to Amazon by people who do not own them.
If people distribute it you have no recourse. No overhaul. Oh yeah. Intellectual property means a lot of things. I personally feel I am doing readers a service giving them a link to the fic pdf because it saves them money. And pulling a fic offline does NOT entitle you to police its distribution. Check the ff. You do not own your fanfic. In any form. Thank you for this insight. I suspected the TOS was as such. And this reiterates so many of my points here. Authors simply should not post material to fanfic venues if they ever want to publish it for money.
In other words, plagiarism alone is not enough to bring suit. Yes, that concept boggles my mind too. You bring up an interesting issue on the ethics of those distributing MotU. I say yes. However, do the original ethical violations of this particular case outweigh the later violations?
Tricky question. Like I said, stupid example. Interesting issues—thanks for bringing it up! Look, fanfic exists in that gray twilight pardon the pun of not-quite-legal and maybe-not-ethical-all-depending-on-motivations.
Even ff. But I do want to touch on the tacit approval you mentioned by authors not defending their work. Trademark Law requires the holders to protest in order to protect the trademark.
Copyright Law specifically says that the copyright remains in effect whether the holder takes any action or not. As for the potential of authors shutting down fandom right out of the gate, I know this whole issue has gotten me to think about how I would approach fanfic if my writing ever gained fans. So yes, this is a very real risk that these pull-to-publish fanfic authors are taking that might affect the whole fanfic community.
And Jessica did heavy editing, as Caren said in an above comment to Gaby. There were entire plot points changed, characters were changed, the content was obviously cut down significantly and was written in third person narrative unlike the fanfic which was 1st person, alternate POV change.
That takes a lot of work. I think making the jump from fanfic to original fiction and using parts of the fanfic story are fine.. They put themselves out there emotionally. As authors, we reuse phrases, themes, even plot events, from one story to another all the time. In that case, they made the decision to reach out to the fanfic community to get validation of their writing. My experience with fanfic taught me that I could finish a novel-length story and write a coherent plot.
Maybe find characters that fit their unique plot better. The stakes should be specific to them. I posted a comment above in the wrong spot.. I thought it was me you replied to, but instead someone with a similar name. Website uses will need to re-login. We will also be adding extra protection to both PM and Story submission later today to further combat these spam bots.
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The Ethics of Reworking Fanfiction: An editor's opinion - Fanlore
Fan fiction, also known as fanfic, refers to stories written by fans about the characters, situations, or world of existing works created by others. This definition sounds broad because the world of fanfic is broad.
In other words, fanfic can be a legitimate and respected form of writing. But do some uses of fanfic cross an ethical line? And if so, where does that line fall? However, there are ethical considerations fanfic authors should respect above all else. Others might disagree with my statement. Fifty Shades of Grey FSoG has reached a high-enough level of popularity in the media to garner a segment on the Today show.
What many of these media mentions fail to point out is that FSoG started out as a Twilight fanfic story called Master of the Universe. The characters in the fanfic version were called Edward and Bella, and readers enjoyed imagining those Twilight characters in this sexually-explicit, BDSM-themed— free —story.
The fanfic story became popular in its own right, to the point that fans of the fanfic story threw their own convention with the fanfic author, raising tens of thousands of dollars for charity. Instant bestseller. Segment on the Today show. This post is about whether this behavior is right. One reason. At that point, if the story is unrecognizable, the fanfic author has added enough of their own imagination to create something new.
The ethical line for fanfic authors can be very gray and wavy. So where do we draw the line? I viewed the experience as a writing exercise for my own enjoyment. Is it ever acceptable for a fanfic author to make money on their fanfic writings? Oh my gosh. Generally, I really like fanfiction I too got my start there, except from the Lord of the Rings fandom. Hi Kaitlin, Exactly. In my mind, any use of that imitation talent to skim fans from the original author for personal gain demeans one as a writer.
A fanfic author might find success with an imitative fanfic story, but what will keep them going after that fad dies out? Will they forever have to suppress their own writing voice to imitate the style that brought them success? But my personal ethics see the situation one way.
I see what you mean about imitation. Sort of like fashion — try on a bunch of clothes and find your personal style that way. If I was to write fanfiction now, I would try and imitate because it would be fun for me and better for readers.
Hey there, I was just wondering. Do you think its okay to use writing a fanfic, as a way to test out an original character for an original story you keep having problems with?
For instance, using the fanfic to try and figure out just what what it is about your story that needs to be changed tone, setting, pace, character backstories or personalities, etc. Many writers get their start at learning writing craft with fanfic, so it can certainly be used for learning purposes.
I never shared it—much less profited off it—but as a learning experience, it was enlightening. Technically, I think if the fan-fic version is still floating around, Meyers has the rights to sue.
Yet again, it depends how similar the story is to Twilight. While it might be fun to imagine Stephenie Meyers suing, my issue with this situation goes beyond the legality. For me, life is not about seeing what I can get away with. This article posted by someone who was involved from the beginning claims the fanfic author knew she was exploiting the Twilight fandom.
She publicized this herself to try to add context to her comments. As one line pointed out, she saw her readers as her personal fans rather than acknowledged their role in the greater fandom or respected that she never would have had them if not for Twilight. That—to me—smacks of possessing less ethics than a carrot since I guess a carrot would be fairly neutral.
Again, some people are fine with being that type of person. I am not one of them. Thank you for this post. I said some similar things recently and I agree with every single thing you said. At no time was she paid to be there or were her expenses paid by anyone other than herself. How do I know this? Because I was there, both times. The author has a loyal group of friends and readers. The vast majority of people who are now reading and loving the books and characters are not part of the fandom.
Yes, there are editing errors that an established publisher would have caught and fixed. Yet despite these errors, new readers are reading and recommending these books to their friends. Next time you post something as fact, please take the time to check that your statements are accurate.
Pretty sure those facts about her trip to NYC are not correct either. No, you were not. I was. Quit trying to say otherwise.
Teamwork helped raise that money for an outtake. Since no one has spoken directly to her, this is another example of rumors and gossip and deliberately misconstrued information.
As a published author I respect the opinion of Jami Gold. What I do not respect is fandom rumors and gossip spilling out onto other blogs. Every story has two sides. We all have different opinions and perceptions. There are dozens of authors who have pulled to publish their Twilight fanfictions, some with the same titles as the original fics. For me, personally, the answer is no.
I seriously would like to understand where you draw the line and why. Thanks for the comment! Um, what? Everything I said in my post is absolutely one hundred percent true. Would you NOT feel cheated in any way shape or form that she used what you built to make herself a success?
She was forced into it. She admitted that herself. Just like she admitted to wanting to revolutionize the publishing industry while talking about her distaste for our entire fandom. None of that changes the ethics of the situation. Please check your facts. What prompted me to comment to you and to the other commenter was that you are repeating rumor and gossip.
I think that hurts the strength of your discussion about ethics. Are slander, libel and restraint of trade ethical? They are illegal. When does the promotion of rumor and lies cross the line into being illegal? I just wanted another view point to be voiced. Thank you for posting my comment and furthering the discussion. Sorry if my typing is terrible. They have resorted to name calling and threats and all sorts to get their feeble little point across.
Does it matter to anyone who loves Fifty? Hell no. As the post above states, get your facts straight before you join the ranks of the cyber-bullies.
Is that what you want to be known for? If the characters had nothing to do with the Twilight characters, then why was this story originally in the Twilight fanfic area? I am not a member of any group of fanfic fandom. This is not a case of me coming out of the woodwork to bully anyone. This is me trying to have a serious conversation about philosophy and ethics when it comes to fanfic. You just hit the nail on the head of my problem with this type of story — it was never fanfic to begin with.
She then tossed the names of what was always original fiction any way once she gained readership. It was never fan fiction. It was always original fiction with character name theft. She used Stephenie.